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Sixteen years on the streets, living and working with the people of China, Jeff

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Downloadable audio podcast at the bottom of this page, Brighteon, iVoox, RuVid, as well as being syndicated on iTunes, Stitcher Radio and Reason.fm (links below),

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Audio (download at the bottom of this page),

Original show on Jonathan’s channel,

https://rumble.com/v6slck1-ive-given-up-on-the-west.-conversation-with-jeff-j.-brown.html

https://discuss.heresy.is/d/9-ive-given-up-on-the-west-conversation-with-jeff-brown

Note before starting: great to be on Jonathan’s new show. If you watch or listen, you may want to read the transcript alongside, since he unfortunatly had some audo problems…

Transcript

Jonathan: Hello, everybody. This is a new edition of the Heresy Central Podcast, and we have a new guest today, Mr. Jeff Brown. He’s there in Taiwan. Actually, where in Taiwan are you?

Jeff: In a little town called Puli, P-U-L-I. We’re about almost south to the halfway point of the island, and we’re about 40 kilometers inland, and we’re right on the foothills of the mountains. It’s really beautiful. We’re up at 530 meters above sea level. It’s very nice.

Jonathan: Sounds nice.

How far are you from public transport, from say Taipei or?

Jeff: Well, Puli has buses that go all over the place, and then if you want, 35 kilometers away is a town, a city called Taichung, which has three million people, and our town only has 85,000. It’s really, it’s quite small.

Jonathan: I think that’s Tai-Jong or…

Jeff: Taichung, yeah Taichung, right in the middle. In fact, “Chong” means middle. And so Taichung.

Jonathan: It’s not the “zhong” of ZhongGuo?

Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s the same one. Zhong-guo, yeah, it’s the same Zhong. And it has a high-speed rail station. And it also has a domestic and international airport. We can go to Hanoi and Hong Kong and several other cities in mainland China. We can go to Japan, South Korea, the Philippines, you know, Bangkok, and that’s only 35, 40 kilometers away, so it’s in a very convenient location.

Jonathan: Oh. So, let’s see, this is the Heresy Central podcast, and of course, we talk with prominent heretics. So, Jeff Brown is a heretic. You’re originally from the United States, Oklahoma. I mean, how heretical are the people in Oklahoma?

Jeff: Not very. It’s very conservative, it’s very Protestant, it’s very politically conservative. The Republicans, you know, it’s definitely a red state. You know, Trump gets like 80-something percent of the vote. And so it’s very, very conservative. So there’s not a lot of heretics in Oklahoma, which is why I live overseas.

Jonathan: But you must have made some intellectual journey to get where you are, as well as a physical one.

Jeff: Yeah, yeah. Basically, I left Oklahoma in 1978 to go to graduate school in Indiana. And then I was in North Africa and, well, yeah, and also Africa and the Middle East from 1980 to 1990. And then from 1990 to 1997 in mainland China. And then France for five years, and then back to Oklahoma for nine years. And then we went back to China in 2010 and did another nine years there. And then we tried to retire in Thailand, but COVID messed that up, and so we ended up back in France. And just left six months ago to come back and live in China, in Taiwan province. So we’re really, really enjoying it. It’s very, very nice.

Jonathan: It sounds like you got a nice place to live. I’ve been to Taiwan twice myself, actually. I think I was first there in 2012, and I was there in…

Jeff: Oh, that was a long time ago, okay.

Jonathan: And I was there in 2019 as well.

Jeff: What you do?

Jonathan: I was just traveling around with Marina. You met Marina in Shenzhen. I heard about you.

Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we met in 2019, I think, something like that, or 2018 in Shenzhen.

Jonathan: Actually, I think it was…

Jeff: It has to be between 2016 and 2019 because that’s when we were in Shenzhen.

Jonathan: I think it’s 2017.

Jeff: Yeah, it could have been. We moved there in 2016 from Beijing. So where do you live in Spain? Where do you live in Spain?

Jonathan: I live in a town called Tarragona which just an hour from Barcelona.

Jeff: Okay, alright. On the coast or inland?

Jonathan: On the coast.

Jeff: Okay, wow, that sounds nice.

Jonathan: Well, yeah, I live right in the sort of medieval old town. I live on a pedestrian street. You have to have a special permit to drive on the street to be a resident here.

Jeff: Sound nice.

Jonathan: And oh yeah, it’s pretty nice. You should come by sometime. I mean, when you, you know, go to France, it’s not too far.

Jeff: The next time I come back to France, I’ll try to come and visit.

Jonathan: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it’s nice, though maybe I’ll get to Taiwan first.

Jeff: Absolutely.

Jonathan: Yeah, sound really. It’s sort of at the epicenter of all this American rhetoric about, you know, the Chinese want to invade Taiwan, which is actually part of China. But they’ve got all this belligerent rhetoric about Taiwan, it’s sort of in the middle of a lot of it.

Jeff: Oh from 1949, you know, when the KMT, the Kuomintang, the party of Chiang Kai-shek, when their butts got saved by the Americans, and the Americans were able to protect them to come to Taiwan, there was already a huge population of Han Chinese. I mean, this island is Han Chinese, it’s mainland Chinese, like 95% Han Chinese. And it’s been that way for centuries and centuries. So from 1949 until 1988, it was always, there was only one China. Taiwan is the leader of China, and Taiwan will rule China. That was the KMT, and it still is officially.

And they also had one of the longest martial laws in history from 1949 until, I think it was 1986 or 1988, when they finally allowed other parties to exist. And unfortunately, the DPP, the Democratic Progressive Party, has been completely co-opted by American interests and is being financed by American money and is being used as a cudgel to push for independence from China. And they keep pushing the envelope. The latest president is really walking a thin line, to be honest. The problem is that the vast majority of Taiwanese don’t want to change anything. They like the status quo as it is. There’s a small percentage who want to reunify with mainland China now. And then, not even about 20-something percent want to be independent. And of course, that’s never going to happen.

Jonathan: I mean, you know, Taiwan is de facto independent. I mean, it’s not, it’s officially part of China, but it’s…

Jeff: It still is officially, but of course, that one country, two systems agreement with the United States, of course, is being more and more flagrantly violated. But China, the mainland, absolutely wants to avoid war at all costs. And I mean, Trump and the entire Congress could come and visit here. The U.S. Congress could come and visit here. The US can stock Taiwan with arms up to their armpits. And it’s not going to be enough to make China attack Taiwan.

They want reunification peacefully. The only trigger is if Taiwan declares independence. And in that case, I’ll be waving my Chinese, I’ll be waving my PRC flag when they come knocking on our door here when the PLA, the People’s Liberation Army, comes knocking on the door. And the people here are very nationalistic. I mean, I don’t talk anything. You know, I speak, read and write Chinese, and I don’t mention anything. I never even say China. I just say Da Lu, which means the continent.

So I don’t really, you know, I’m not here to moralize with the Taiwanese. Of course, I know that Taiwan will be reunified with the mainland. I mean, it’s been a part of China going back millennia. And officially, since the 1680s, it has been a prefecture. It was a prefecture of Fujian province going back to the mid-1600s. It’s been a part of China for a long before the United States ever became a country.

Jonathan: Yeah, but the United States isn’t making all this noise about Taiwan because they give a damn about the Taiwanese people, right? I mean, how foolish would you have to be to believe that? I mean…

Jeff: Well, you know, people, you know, there’s a real strong sense of being Taiwanese here. A lot of that has to do with their history. They were occupied by the Japanese from 1895.

Jonathan: The Taiwanese care about being Taiwanese, but I’m saying the US government doesn’t care about the whole thing. That’s all a pretense, a game, right?

Jeff: They will fight China to the last Taiwanese, just like they are in Ukraine.

Jonathan: Yeah, you see, that’s the thing. I mean, ah, some months ago, I think I was chatting with somebody, actually on WhatsApp. And I remember, you know, was talking, and somehow the topic of Taiwan came up, and I said, and I just said, I can’t imagine the Taiwanese are so stupid now to get into what the Ukrainians got into. I mean, it’s like, there’s one, because especially once you see the example, you know what I mean? It’s like… And that whole Ukraine situation is just…

Jeff: Well, first off, the press here, the media here, is very, very tightly controlled. Since the DPP has been mostly in power for the last, you know, whatever it is, 12 or 15 years, the media is extremely anti-mainland China. And so the people are extremely anti-mainland China. And of course, from ’49 up to ’88, this country was under severe dictatorial, I mean severe dictatorial martial law.

You know, Chiang Kai-shek famously said, “I would rather kill 1,000 innocent people than to let one communist escape.” And that was the attitude here from ’49 to ’88. He died in ’75, but his son took over and lasted, I think, until it was ’86 or ’88 or something like that. And so, of course, they were totally inculcated with the idea that China is evil, China is bad, in school, on TV, everywhere you went in Taiwan. Government, you know, government, everything in the legislature, etc. China evil, you know.

These people who want independence, the only possibility they think they have to be independent is with the Americans helping them. Of course, they… So they don’t see the fact that they’re the ones that are going to get killed. But even if China had to invade, just like Putin and the Russians are doing in Ukraine, they would do everything they can to save every civilian life. Because for the Chinese, they’re brothers. These are like kissing cousins in Taiwan, and they look upon them as fellow citizens.

So the Chinese are not going to do like what the United States did in Iraq, and just bombing the place, and what Ukraine is doing, bombing Donetsk and Lugansk, bombing all the civilian infrastructure. The PLA would never do that here. That’s why if they invaded, I wouldn’t be worried at all. I mean, they’re just going to come knocking on my door and ask who’s living here and say, well, hey, right behind me, I have my business. We have our business license for our company in mainland China. So, lived there for 16 years.

Jonathan: In terms of gaining independence, I mean, you know, what would they get? I mean, maybe they could get a seat in the UN or something. But Taiwan is de facto independent or at least autonomous. They run their own affairs. I mean, don’t they?

Jeff: If they got, quote, independence, but of course, China mainland would never allow. Let’s just hypothetically say they did, it would be turned into another Japan and the Philippines. It would just be occupied with American troops and it would be militarized to the hilt and it would just become another aircraft carrier to encircle mainland China, which is what South Korea, Japan, the Philippines are already doing, and Australia further south. And Singapore has American troops. Thailand has American troops. Australia probably has nuclear weapons from the United States.

And then, of course, there’s Guam and Saipan and all these other islands in the Pacific that are militarized by the United States. But the fact is, it’s not going to happen. I think that if they’re stupid enough to declare independence, if they did it, it would be because they’re bribed, extorted, or blackmailed by the United States to do it. I think, you know, either that or they’re deluded just like Zelensky, you know, and they think they can actually beat the PLA. But I mean, you know, one of China’s fighter jets can’t even get off the runway, it’s already in Taiwan.

It’s only 150 kilometers away. So I mean, they’re here in two minutes. And they’ve already done many exercises surrounding, blockading the island, you know, with destroyers, and they now have two active aircraft carriers, and they’re commissioning their third one, and they can block it on the Pacific side and on the mainland side. So the only thing that really scares me is that it’s the same thing with the Jewish state. I’m really worried that if the Jewish state thought they were going to lose, they would do the Samson option and destroy the world with nuclear weapons.

And they would do it without even blinking. The United States would probably blink, but if they knew they were getting their asses kicked by China, they might try tactical nuclear weapons too. And that would be… Of course, the Jewish state would use the, you know, would try to wipe out as much of humanity as possible. But the United States might try to use, you know, little tactical nuclear weapons, and of course, that would cause a nuclear.

Jonathan: Now stepping back from all of this, you are an American, and you were born in Oklahoma of all places, and you hold these views. You are kind of, and I’m not very far from this either, I mean, you kind of just, you’re perhaps not the nation itself, as in the people, because they’re just kind of brainwashed, but I mean, certainly the government’s power structure of your country, you just view them as kind of pretty evil. Oh, I almost… I mean, I’m mischaracterizing this, I mean, you view them as evil, almost at a comic book character evil sort of level?

Jeff: Yeah, I would like to point out one other thing is that if the United States gets into a hot war with China, then the United States gets into a hot war with the DPRK, North Korea, because mainland China, and North Korea have had a mutual defense treaty going back to 1961, and they just renewed it in 2021. So that means if the United States attacks China, North Korea is going to attack the United States. And North Korea has thermonuclear weapons that can take out the east coast of the United States.

Jonathan: Are we sure of this?

Jeff: Oh yeah, they’ve got MIRVs, they’ve got hyperglide missiles, hypersonic missiles. So I hope that the megalomaniacs in the Pentagon really reflect on the idea of trying to attack China. To be honest, China has the biggest navy, by far the biggest navy in the world, a deep-water navy. They’ve got 3,000 merchant marine, private merchant marine ships that practice with the PLA’s navy. The US could not pass gas around Taiwan without being swarmed. And not to mention, you know, China has thousands of aircraft carrier killers. They can take out all of the United States’ aircraft carriers in a couple of hours. And they can also take out Pearl Harbor. And they can also take…

Jonathan: Say that I find the notion of a full-blown war between the US and China is kind of inconceivable. I mean, they still talk about it. And of course, it’s hard to even conceive what they think their grievance against China is to be actually getting into a war. I mean, it’s just…

Jeff: Well, the United States is against China because China is preeminent in manufacturing, trade, technology, 5G, 6G. They just launched a 10G. They just launched a 10G satellite. 10 gigabytes a second of data.

Jonathan: China is a bloody impressive place. I had visited. I think I first visited China in 2011, and I visited a number of times, and Marina and I stopped by and met you one time in Shenzhen. But I had traveled a number of times, and I hadn’t been back until just last summer. I was with my daughter. I was there last summer.

Jeff: Yeah, cool.

Jonathan: Yeah, but China is impressive.

Jeff: It’s amazing. It’s another planet. I mean, it’s just so advanced. And that’s why it’s so smart that the Chinese have completely liberalized the no-visa rule and are letting many, 50 or 60 countries come into China with no visas, then lastly, the United States and the UK. All you have to do is just go on YouTube and just type in “my first day in China” or “my first week in China” or “my first impressions of China.” And there’s hundreds of videos of people, you know, just travelers who are just gobsmacked by what they see, and they’re reporting on it. It’s been the best soft power play that mainland China has done since the 2008 Olympics.

Jonathan: Did you see what happened a couple of months ago with this? They were going to ban TikTok, and all of these people went and got on this Chinese app called Xiao Hong Shu, Little Red Note.

Jeff: The Little Red Book. But they call it Red Note in English. But it’s actually.

Jonathan: Hong Shu means Red Book. Yeah, Little Red Book is what Mao put out.

Jeff: Which is Mao’s collection of sayings.

Jonathan: Yeah, but it’s kind of a joke, of course, because little social media doesn’t have much to do with Mao’s Little Red Book. I mean, I guess it’s a bit tongue-in-cheek, but they still, in English, call it Little Red Note. But there are all these videos on YouTube, people got on, you know, on Little Red Note, Zhao Hongxiu, and they just saw what life in China was really like, and they were just sort of mugged by reality, as it were.

God, look at these people’s high-speed trains, look at these electric cars, look at, you know. What I was struck by when I was there last summer was that they’d gone completely cashless, which actually was a real hassle for me because I wasn’t really set up for it. I didn’t realize the sheer extent of it. You practically can’t use cash in mainland China. I mean, if you pull out some money and try to pay, they have to accept it, I guess, because it’s legal tender, but it’s a real hassle for them.

Oh, you know, because they maybe, you know, don’t have change and they’ve got to go somewhere else to get some change and come back. And you end up feeling really bad for them. So you feel like you have to get this. But of course, actually to order in a lot of restaurants and see the menus, you have to have usually WeChat on your phone.

Jeff: Yeah, to scan the QR code to place your order.

Jonathan: Yeah, but I was having a hard time getting it all working, you know, because I mean, it’s like that in Europe now, and I don’t know, would it be in the States? I don’t know, not so much maybe, but you know, all of these QR codes, I don’t really like it. They brought all that in during COVID, you know, and to me, it’s a total pain in the ass, but you know, in China, all of that is more… but I think also it was a bit of a hassle because I had to figure out how to get the WeChat payment thing going with a foreign credit card. I think if you actually have a Chinese bank account, it’s pretty easy.

Jeff: Yeah, we do. We’re a little bit different. We have Chinese phone numbers that we pay monthly. We have a subscription to Chinese phone numbers and a Chinese bank account. And it does make it easier. You don’t have to.

Jonathan: Are you still doing?

Jeff: Oh yeah, yeah, because we have a company in mainland China. We have a company. We have an LLC, a limited liability corporation, in mainland China. And that allows us, even though we don’t live there, it allows us to have phones. And I had the bank account going back to the 1990s, when we lived there in the 1990s, Bank of China. And they never closed down bank accounts in China, they never do.

Jonathan: When I was first in China in 2011, I mean, the country was entirely cash-based. I mean, when you went to a hotel, it was the yajin, the deposits you had to leave, and they gave it. They took out things from the deposit, and when you checked out, they gave you back whatever was left from the deposit. It’s all cash, you know? And everything was just cash. I mean, there was no concept of pulling out any sort of plastic bank card or anything at any normal eatery or anything.

And now we almost can’t use cash. So that was a… I guess, well, that’s like 13 years. But even like street peddlers and stuff, I mean, they want to scan your WeChat to get paid. I mean, I just can’t, I mean, I don’t know how they could convince everybody to move over to this. I mean, I guess it is more efficient and everything, but still, you think that a lot of these older people who’ve just been using cash their whole lives, and you tell them, “You’ve got to use this app on this phone,” and you just think there would be a lot of pushback or something.

But, you know, maybe there was, but they overcame it, I guess. I mean, I thought it was just amazing. And of course, actually, the Chinese invented paper money back in the day, I mean, a few centuries ago. And you know, it got me thinking, you know, imagine that you, people aren’t used to the idea of paper money and you want to tell them, they’re used to gold coins and silver coins, and you try and sell them this, that this paper stuff is actually money and has value.

It’s, I mean, I guess we all accept it because we grew up with it. It actually is a rather strange concept. Does this paper have any value if you actually step back and think about it, you know what I mean? But you know, I can imagine you’re 40 or 50 years old and you’ve just been using metal coins, gold and silver your whole life, and somebody tries to get you to use this paper, and you’d just be like, you know, what kind of con job is this?

So I guess switching from paper to electronic is less of a… you know, it’s less of a conceptual jump because it’s still… because even paper money, I guess, is kind of conceptual, you know, with this paper. I mean, if one piece of paper’s got a, you know, ten on it, and the other piece of paper with basically the same, has a hundred on it, and it’s worth ten times the other one, and we just accept that, you know, I mean, it kind of makes one think. But, you know, that’s… but China is just… I don’t know how many, I told you that my mother is ethnically Chinese, right?

Jeff: No, you didn’t tell me that.

Jonathan: Maybe you suspected it.

Jeff: I don’t know, no I didn’t.

Jonathan: Yeah, my mother was born in the States, and she’s actually the eldest of three siblings. But she’s never been to China, just not interested. She’s totally American. She’s the kind of Chinese American who, first thing she does at a Chinese restaurant, she likes Chinese food, she likes going to Chinese restaurants. First thing she does in a Chinese restaurant is ask for a fork. You know, she’s one of these types.

Jeff: Where’s her home? Where is her hometown? Where is her family from originally?

Jonathan: I think there I can’t hear you properly. Your sound is suddenly not very good.

Jeff: I had a drop in my sound here. Just a second. Let me click on fast.com and see how fast…

Jonathan: Now your sound good.

Jeff: Yeah, it was just a drop. It was just a drop. Usually I have, yeah, I’m 270 megabytes a second. And hang on, now how do I get back to the big screen? What do I do? Huh? Oh, there we go. All right, there we go. And so does your mother know where her ancestors are?

Jonathan: Well, I think her mother, my maternal grandmother, was mostly from Hong Kong, but I guess their people are from Guangdong really.

Jeff: Okay, Guangdong. Okay, all right. The people out there that don’t know what Guangdong is, that’s the correct or the 21st-century name for Canton. Canton is the old.

Jonathan: It was actually Guangzhou. Whereas Canton is the city and also the province.

Jeff: People, Cantonese. Canton is basically the Pearl River Delta, you know, Canton. But yeah, I’m just glad I’m here. I find what’s going on in France. Of course, I have dual nationality. I have a French passport too. And we left France in October, and I was just so glad to leave there. It’s so messed up, and it’s been totally Weimarized. It’s like Weimar, Germany. And it’s just completely lost. It’s just completely, Europe’s gone. And it just makes me sick. And actually, now I’m afraid to even go back to the United States because they are grabbing people at passport control and throwing them in jail.

Jonathan: What grounds would they have to throw you in jail, Jeff, just for being a heretic?

Jeff: Yeah, for being a heretic, pro-Chinese, anti-Jewish state, and pro-Chinese. They are throwing people in jail, not forever and ever, they take you for 10, 15, 20, 30 days, treat you like shit. And then you have to hire a lawyer to get out. And I’m actually afraid to go back. The last time I went was last year. I’m trying to think of when I went. But especially with Trump, you know, they passed this, so-called anti-Semitic, you know, law where they can kick people out of the country for saying anything bad about Israel or the Jewish people or whatever.

And so, they could literally take my passport away from me. They could denationalize me. Have you been on X? There are people. They even grabbed an actress who was on a major Netflix program, a major Netflix serial, TV series. And she was coming back in from Canada, and they grabbed her. And they threw her in jail. And it was only because of her celebrity, it was only because of her celebrity that she got out after a few days. They don’t have to even tell you why, they just take you.

And so her case, I can’t remember her name now, and I can’t remember the name of the show. But her case really brought forward the fact that this is happening to a lot of people. And it’s spent on anybody who’s, well now with Trump, pro-Russia, but before, if you were pro-Russia, pro-China or anti-Jewish state, they will harass you, they will keep you, they’ll put you in jail just to let you know who’s boss. And you’ve got to spend thousands of dollars on a lawyer to get out.

Jonathan: And this actually happens to US citizens?

Jeff: Yes, yes, it is happening to US citizens right now.

Jonathan: We know all the stuff about clamping down on campus protests.

Jeff: Yeah, well, this is the same thing, except we’re just doing it at the border. And since I…

Jonathan: I mean, I look back to my days in the university, and there are always, you know, idealistic young people marching around protesting something. I mean, it doesn’t… I mean, why would they even care? I mean, they can’t achieve anything with it. So why not let people blow off some steam? I mean, this doesn’t make any sense to me.

Jeff: Well, the Western Empire and the Jewish state do not want to be challenged under any circumstances. And so they’re brooking no questioning of what they’re doing and who they are, et cetera. You know, I’ve got a granddaughter in Oklahoma, and I’ve got another one coming up, a new grandchild being born in September, and I don’t know if I’ll ever see them again. You know, I really am scared because, and you don’t know, and also I carry two passports.

Of course, I travel on my American passport, but I have a website that gets over five million page views a year. And so I’m obviously known, and I’m on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and, you know, all of them. VK and LinkedIn, and I just post all of my work on those, on social media, and so they have to know who I am and what I’m publishing.

Jonathan: But in principle, you can publish. I’m going to sound naive here, but isn’t that the First Amendment that you can… I know I’m going to sound naive, but in principle, you can say what you want, publish what you want, and also if you’re not even located in the United States, I mean, do they have any jurisdiction? But are you even leading that?

Jeff: Touch me here, but they could take me if I try to go back to Oklahoma and see my family. I’ve got cousins and aunts and my daughter and grandkids and son-in-law. But I’m really worried about going back now. When I heard what Trump’s doing, this new anti-Semitic law which is… you can protest. There’s a great quote by a guy named Ward Churchill. I don’t know if he’s a scion of the Churchill family or not, but his famous quote is that American citizens have the right to express their opinion as long as it is the government’s opinion.

And there you go. So yeah, if I want to protest against Biden or if I want to protest against Democrats or if I want to protest, now it’s okay to protest against woke. You couldn’t before Trump got elected, but now it’s okay. So it’s just whatever the government says is good, you can talk all you want, but as soon as you go up against them, you know, it’s not like the old days. They are brooking no dissension whatsoever.

Jonathan: George Carlin said you can’t… it can’t be changed by voting because if you could, it wouldn’t be allowed.

Jeff: Yeah, that’s for sure.

Jonathan: Well, there’s a, you know, this is all part of the reason I think that it seems… I find it was like this, I think it’s very real. I was listening to some interview with some Catalan guy, an older guy, forgot his name, he’s somebody who spends a lot of time in South America and in Brazil, and he said he has a hard time coming back to Spain because he says that Spain is, he says in Spanish, it’s “el país de oof.” Like “oof” is a sound that could make, like somebody composes, “Why don’t we do this?” I mean, it’s become a kind of old… I mean, we’re both reasonably old, but a little bit more than that.

But it’s kind of like people who don’t have much drive to. Spain is the country of “oof.” And in South America, like in Brazil, the country… there’s a much younger population. So you talk to them about maybe something new or doing something new. But Spain, might be, by extension, at least western Europe, it’s the land of “oof.” I don’t know if you understand what I mean. It’s kind of like there’s a kind of… I mean, Europe, I guess in some ways always maybe was kind of a land of “oof” in a way.

If you went to America where there was this feeling that you could do anything, it was more of a sense of limitless horizons and all of that, you know, but it was a younger society and it is the place where new things come from, you know, the internet and so on. I wonder, is the US becoming now the land of “oof”? You know, it’s China where I think it’s going to increasingly be that China is where all the new things come from, you know what I mean? The West is, in its decline, going to be the land of “oof.” Oof!

Jeff: Yeah. If you look at what’s happened in the West for the last 20, 30 years and then you study Weimar Germany, the West is already Weimarized. So the West is cooked, it’s over. It is completely debauched and completely corrupt. And, you know, it doesn’t matter whether it’s Europe with Brussels, which is an open sewer of corruption and greed. And then you’ve got, you know, Trump with whatever it is, 11 or 13 billionaires, you know, in his cabinet.

You know, it’s just, the West is gone. It’s finished. The education systems have just gone to shit. You know, nobody’s… science, technology, engineering and math, you know, the STEM disciplines are… it’s just gone. Literacy is going down all across Western Europe. Literacy is going down in North America. It’s, you know, it’s over. The West is going to be totally eclipsed by BRICS, SCO.

The joker in the pack, of course, is the Jewish state because they want to create greater Judea from the Nile River in Egypt to the Euphrates River in Iraq, and they’re doing a good job of getting there. That’s the big wild card, but the only reason that they’re able to do that is because of the US dollar. So if the US dollar collapses, that’s the end of the Jewish state. The US Reserve currency is the lifeblood of the Jewish state right there, as well as the West. So, I’m sorry.

Jonathan: Yeah, I was toying with, you know, an article, and I’ve even written a few things, and the perspective, you know, trying to get back into my writing, and one prospective article I was going to write, you know, even written a couple of pages of, I think is entitled, “When did the US become an asshole country?” You know, it’s sort of like a… I mean, if you read this guy Morris Berman, and he’ll tell you that the US always was an asshole country, but it’s in the cultural DNA of the country.

I mean, even Trump is kind of a representative of the US as an asshole country. You know, he’s the chief asshole. That’s not to say that I think his predecessor was any better. In fact, I was actually mildly, I don’t know what I thought of the last election. I mean, I certainly, all of that was so weird the way, well, I mean, they suddenly discovered that Biden was senile, you know? Sort of like Renault in Casablanca discovered that there was gambling going on.

Jeff: Hahaha!

Jonathan: I’m shocked that there’s all this gambling going on. They suddenly were… He had that first debate with Trump, when he was obviously not quite with it. And then they discovered, like, you know, like Renault in Rick’s Cafe, there was all this senility going on here. But it was in a late day, there was no primary, so its vice president, being that woman, Kamala Harris, ran for president, somebody who nobody had ever voted for in a primary or anything, and to run against Trump. And so, you know, who were you supposed to root for or vote for in that election?

But it seems to me like the deep state wanted Trump now, you know, because why did they put up this utterly… this candidate with no credibility, you know? This Harris. Maybe he even follows this stuff anymore since it’s been so long. I don’t know why I follow it all so much. Well, it matters in the world, all this stuff, somehow. But, you know, It’s kind of masochistic, you know, to watch this stuff, isn’t it? I did a presentation the other day with a group called Doctors for COVID Ethics, sort of 9/11 revisited. And I was complimented after it because it adopted a very sarcastic, humorous tone as I recounted the absurdity of some of this, the whole 9/11 stuff.

But it’s also kind of laughter in the dark. I mean, I’m making these jokes about it, but it’s like, but it is like, you know, you don’t know whether to laugh or to cry because the whole narrative is just so utterly absurd. And you know, that a country could base its foreign policy on this story and send the army into different countries largely based on this bloody story, and you know, I was recounting this whole thing about the so-called Hamburg cell and Mohammed Atta and the other characters who supposedly flew the planes into the buildings.

It’s just such a laughable sort of joke of a story, you know? And I’m amazed I look back and realize it took me ten years to realize that it was just such total bullshit. But that’s sort of like… I guess it’s kind of like crossing the Rubicon because once you say 9/11’s bullshit, it’s sort of like… I don’t know. I mean, it’s just realizing. Out of curiosity, when did you… I mean, when did you cross that Rubicon?

Jeff: Well, in 2010, when we went back to China after being there from 1990 to 1997 and seeing the incredible transformation of the country and the people, how much they had improved as people and as a society. And then in 2010, someone sent me the 10-second clip of the World Trade Center number seven collapsing in free fall. And when I saw that, you know, I’m a certified science teacher. I mean, I’ve actually taught science in public schools, you know. And when I saw that, I thought, “Wow, that’s defying the laws of physics,” you know? There’s something wrong here.

Jonathan: Well, it has to be carefully engineered by a team of experts.

Jeff: Of course, later I learned it was, and the towers were brought down by thermite and controlled.

Jonathan: Yeah, that seems to be…

Jeff: Controlled demolition. So that’s what got me going. And then I took my trip, my big trip in 2012 in the six poorest provinces of China to see if what we were seeing in Beijing extended out into the countryside, and it was more than extended. That was my first book, 44 Days Backpacking in China. And then I wrote China Rising after that in 2013 because I realized that the West was a complete and total lie.

So I exposed 9/11, and every terrorist act in the West is a government job. It’s a government job. Las Vegas, Boston, Nice, Bataclan, Charlie Hebdo, I mean, the London Tube, Sandy Hook, every single one of these things are, if not actively perpetrated by the US government, they are allowed to happen and encouraged to happen. And so that’s when I wrote China Rising, and then I realized I had learned a lot more about the Mao era that I did not know before and found out how incredible it was.

And so I kind of combined, actually didn’t combine, I just continued and built on what I had learned in the first two books. And then I wrote, it was originally “China is communist, dammit!”. And then I got the rights to publish it back to myself and I changed the title and updated it into a new edition called The Big Red Book on China. But yeah, I’ve given up on the West. I think it’s finished.

Jonathan: You know, I think that I don’t remember what all the conversations, I mean, we didn’t hang around for that long in Shenzhen back… that’s eight years ago. And I think you’re more radicalized now than you were then. You sound, or maybe, I don’t know.

Jeff: Probably.

Jonathan: I’m thinking I might be more radicalized now than I was. I probably… my realization of certain things, you know, back then I didn’t understand the things I understand better now, like controlled opposition and things like this. This was something that came up in the conversation yesterday after my 9/11 presentation ended up, you know, talking about, musing about all of this question of infiltration, that’s a term, agents provocateurs, and all of that sort of thing.

I mean, like in East Germany, after the wall fell down, Germany reunified, I guess, they opened the Stasi files, the German secret police, and just all of the people who were working for the Stasi, you know, and who allegedly were dissidents, you know, but it was all shot through with Stasi agents. And they talk about this, and there was actually this movie from Germany, it was a very good movie actually, The Lives of Others (Das Leben der Anderen) or something, that describes some of this milieu. But I’ve been thinking for a while that if a similar event, like the opening of the Stasi files, happened in the United States and they opened the CIA and FBI files, you figure it out.

You know, all of the prominent people, whether in academia or in the media, in the government, in politics, you know, deep state assets of some sort. I mean, it would just be… It would be like the Stasi opening their files, or worse, wouldn’t it? I mean, it would just be something. I mean, it would… I mean, something like that could shatter everybody’s illusions, I guess. But it’s hard to imagine what kind of political change would be necessary for some event like that to happen.

Jeff: They couldn’t even get the Jeffrey Epstein files opened because too many, there are so many high-level important people who are pedophiles, including Trump. So that got quashed. It would take a complete collapse, I think, of Western Empire for that to happen. And that probably, I’m going to be 71 next week. I don’t know if it’s going to happen in my lifetime, but it will. I hope it happens in my children’s and grandchildren’s lifetime. And to end Western Empire after 500 years. And to end the Jewish state that is causing so much chaos in the world.

Jonathan: Well, they’re causing a lot of problems. Now, when you, I mean, you say you don’t go back to Oklahoma, but you must talk to your relatives now and then at least. I guess you bite your tongue on all this, right? I mean, these people wouldn’t be open to what you’re saying, right?

Jeff: No, just stick with the niceties.

Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, I have to, I guess, but sometimes, I mean, the thing is that somehow I’m not very well socialized. I never learned really how to small-talk very well. So it’s hard for me. You know, what I mean, I… I like having serious conversations about serious things. And then it’s, you know, it’s kind of taboo. It’s like you say certain things sometimes. It’s like what I was thinking for it, you know, in a small room, you know what I mean? It’s not too popular. So what, you said you have a company in China, but you have this sort of big ongoing project that I admire, you know, of telling the truth about China and all of this. I mean, that’s ongoing. What else do you have on the horizon?

Jeff: Just keep writing, keep producing, keep interviewing, keep being interviewed. Keep traveling to mainland China. We just spent three weeks in northern Vietnam and want to spend more time in Asia. And that’s basically it. I’m worried about going back to France. I mean, I will try to go back to France. I think that’s probably okay. Since all of my work is in English, they don’t see it in France but they’d have to hit the translate button, and they’re not going to do that.

Jonathan: There’s this jurisdictional problem. I mean, you can be as heretical as you want and talk all this stuff, but how does French law enforcement have any jurisdiction over what you’re doing right now? I just don’t think…

Jeff: So it can be the same thing. Since I’m a French citizen, I have a French passport. And since I have two passports, when I go to France, I use my French passport. I use my French passport here. In all my travels, I use my French passport except to go back to the United States. So I could conceivably go back to France, and they could ask me to step aside. They could harass me. They could definitely harass me. But I think there’s a lot less of a chance of that in France right now than there is in the United States.

Jonathan: You could come see me in Spain and then cross overland, you know, or there’s…

Jeff: That’s true. You can drive a car. I could fly to Barcelona and then drive a car across. That’s true. But you can’t do that in the United States. You’ve got to either go through Mexico or Canada. You’ve got to go through customs control.

Jonathan: Yeah, there are still pretty much no border controls between the various, certainly the Schengen.

Jeff: Yeah, the Schengen Treaty countries.

Jonathan: I mean, maybe I should look into this. I visited the US for the last time in December. I saw my mother there. And then I actually went to Mexico afterwards in January. But certainly if you go from, certainly from a top-tier Chinese city to anywhere in the United States, it’s now like stepping back in time. And you have all these people on YouTube saying, “Oh, China, it’s like going into the future.” And they’re trying to keep this a secret. I mean, you said that the people in Taiwan are very anti-Mainland. But they can move back and forth freely, can’t they?

I mean, back in the Chiang Kai-shek days, Well, also China kind of sucked back in those days. But, I mean, that’s not the same China as we have now. But even so, probably there wasn’t that much movement. And as for visiting mainland China, nobody, pretty much nobody in the US ever visited mainland China back in the 1970s or 1960s or whatever, and even if the few people we did, you know, were seeing something completely different from what there is now. What there is now is just… It’s just something completely different. I mean, there’s all this stuff about… But there’s so much anti-Chinese propaganda. Apparently, the government budgeted; this was under Biden, they had budgeted 1.8 billion…

Jeff: No, no, the total is 5 to 6 billion over, 5 point something billion over 10 years. A million dollars a day for anti-Chinese propaganda.

Jonathan: I mean, it’s literally saying, we’re appropriating all these billions of dollars just to talk shit about China, right? I mean, that’s kind of extraordinary to think about it, you know? I mean, also, if China is so terrible, why would they need to spend all that money to shit on China? You know, I mean, it doesn’t make any sense, does it? I mean, if this place is so terrible, it should be its own negative propaganda. And I guess the US is increasingly becoming its own negative propaganda, as somebody else, another heretic Mike Palmer, said.

Well, you know, the US are their own negative propaganda. China doesn’t seem to spend billions of dollars bad-mouthing the US, and it’s just… One of the things that I… I mean, this Ukraine thing is just amazing. There’s a Swiss officer who has been giving interviews about this for the last Jacques Baud, B-A-U-D, I was just thinking about that. He’s one of these truth-tellers on the whole situation in Ukraine. He was giving some interviews in French and then later, I think he gives interviews in English now. But I remember early on in the whole thing when the Ukrainians had maybe just lost a couple hundred thousand people.

The Russians have lost people too, but a smaller number. Jacques Baud was saying, “Well, you know, I have to think that if the European public knew the scale of this slaughter, that they would all be in the streets protesting.” But there’s no… I mean, when the whole, when the run-up to the whole Iraq thing, I mean, there were massive protests in London and Barcelona. The people were really against this, but they can gin up this problem in Ukraine. And now it seems there’s a million people dead, which is just… How many people died in the whole Balkans thing in the 97s?

Jeff: I don’t know. I don’t know. I just know that the US bombed them for 199 days and bombed them with depleted uranium, and now Serbia is a radioactive mess. But I don’t know how many people died. I don’t think there were that many. I think they basically, I don’t know. I don’t know. It could be tens of thousands. I don’t know. But I don’t think it was hundreds of thousands, because it only lasted 199 days. Although there were also the interesting wars fomented by the West between Muslims and the Bosnians and the Christian Serbians and the Croatians, etc.

Jonathan: There’s nobody around here that I can really talk with. On that level, my life is online. Can talk online. I don’t overhear anybody in a cafe talking about, you know, “My god, it’s a million dead people there in East Europe.” And it’s just sort of… I mean, there’s a kind of indifference. People can’t get excited about much. I got annoyed at somebody who’s always like… I don’t know, I was just sort of expressing shock about the whole thing, and it was like… Oof.

This is the land of “oof.” Europe is the land of “oof.” You know, people don’t get excited about very much. Might be a consequence of just the overall aging of the population. You know, they just don’t get excited about much. I don’t know. But there is that sort of feeling of the kind of generalized decadence and moral bankruptcy. That’s real.  Is that a really high note to wind down the conversation? I don’t know.

Jeff: I think so. We’ve gone for over an hour, and I think for the fans out there, if it goes on and on and on, the watchership or whatever you want to call it, goes down, down, down. So I think we’ve had a wonderful conversation. I think it’s a good… we can always do it again.

Jonathan: Yeah, it should come with a… If you watch enough times, you should get some free Prozac, I guess, if you carry on like this, you know? But maybe, you know, I mean, maybe things will brighten up. I mean, if we… Because there is something big going on. We are moving towards a multi-polar world, I think. That’s for sure. Maybe they’ll have some positive repercussions.

Jeff: That’s a positive note to end on.

Jonathan: Okay. I’ll put this up on Rumble and stuff, and I’ll put in some links about, you know, where they can find you and all of that.

Jeff: And then I will download it from Rumble, and I will put it on my Radio Sinoland, and then I’ll promote your channel. Win-win, win-win, win-win Chinese cooperation.

Jonathan: Yeah, yeah, okay, well, nice seeing you again.

Jeff: Thank you, Jonathan. I really enjoyed being on your show tonight. Thank you very much.

Jonathan: Okay, well, we’ll do it again. Maybe we’ll have a more focused conversation about some more specific thing.

Jeff: Send me your Rumble link when you get it up.

Jonathan: Yeah, I will. Okay.

Jeff: I will give you a Buddhist bow from Taiwan, China. Alright, take care. Bye.

###

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Why and How China works: With a Mirror to Our Own History

44 Days Backpacking in China: The Middle Kingdom in the 21st Century, with the United States, Europe and the Fate of the World in Its Looking Glass

China Rising: Capitalist Roads, Socialist Destinations

 

 

 

 

 

 

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